9:00 meeting for work: 1
Blog: 0
(I only had 5 minutes left to finish, but I also was running the meeting . . . sorry this is late!)
4.5 hours of testimony, nearly 7 hours of meeting, over 80 speakers, hundreds of registrants, several amendments and 1 RTA!
PUBLIC TESTIMONY
Tho several of us attempted to count the speakers, we have some inconsistencies. There were 38 – 41 people speaking in support, 48 – 49 speaking in opposition. There were 155 registrants in support, 139 in opposition and 3 that were unclear. So, slightly more speakers and registrants in support, but pretty evenly split.
AMENDMENT TO MAKE THE REFERENDUM BINDING
By the time they started discussing the RTA, it was midnight. It took the a half hour to cover the rest of the agenda, heard 4.5 hours of testimony and toold a break. And just in case you get confused. McDonell is not chairing this meeting, Hendrick is so that McDonell can participate in the debate. I should also note that several people are at this meeting when they should be on vacation with their famlies (Hesselbein), have out of town company (Vedder) or while they have pneumonia (Stubbs) or are clearly not feeling well (Miles). I appreciate the efforts the elected officials made to be at the meeting. Only Gau is absent for the votes.
deFelice says that they intended for this to be presented to the public. He makes a motion to insert the word “binding” before referendum. There is no discussion. Motion passes on a voice vote, with maybe one no.
MOTION TO DELETE PORTION THAT SAYS ONE OF COUNTY APPOINTMENTS WOULD BE FROM THE TOWNS
Ripp, who added this amendment in committee, says that in the joint meeting this was added and the amendment should be discussed. Unfortunately had a strategy and didn’t think about it, moved to delete the amendment he made, but he supports his own amendment he originally made. Seconded by Martz.
McDonell says that he would request or suggest he withdraw his motion. Motion withdrawn with McDonell’s promise to move Public Works and Transportation version that include this amendment.
DISCUSSION
Martz says that he proposed a resolution to have a referendum if the state passed a law. He reads a portion of the resolution. It required to have a county wide referendum with a range of transportation options within 12 months of passage of an ordinance giving them authority to create an RTA. It also said that if there was a sales tax, it would be contingent on referendum. He says the legislatures action would kick the resolution into motion, he asks if they have done anything to go to referendum.
Hendrick says corporation council should answer the question.
Corporation Council and Martz have an exchange that I didn’t understand, I’m not ever sure they talked in complete sentences, but they seemed to understand each other.
Martz asks if there has been any action by the leadership to move forward with this requirement in the resolution.
Hendrick says that if that is a direct question to someone, he can have them answer it, but he would have to yield his time, he decides to wait until someone else speaks.
Hulsey says there is a lot of discussion about property taxes and taxing authority and he says that Madison tax payers by $10M per year for Madison Metro, $120 per home. One of the reason people in his district support this is, beyond congestion, they want property tax relief and help paying for the system. Many of the people speaking were outside the taxing area according to an email Hulsey got from Alder Clear. He says that this distributes the fairness of the system. He tells them to read the Wisconsin State Journal editorial which tells them to pass the RTA.
McDonell says that at their desks they have an opinion from Corporation Council that says that they are bound by the legislation. He says it wasn’t what he wanted, he supported 25% of the money being for roads and that the RTA would be county wide, but those things didn’t happen. The binding referendum was vetoed. He would have also supported more equitable representation, but that didn’t happen. This legislation even tho not perfect, allows us to do what we need to do. When ran for county board commuter rail was an issue and he was hesitant to support it, density is low and didn’t think it was a great idea and he warmed up to the idea over the time from walking to work and watching the intersections get worse and worse as the traffic backs up. Bus or rail can serve the purpose to relieve the congestion. As the intersections back up and get clogged it gets exponentially worse. When National Guardian Life hits Wisconsin Avenue at 4:30 the cars can’t get out of the building. How will we maintain the major job centers in the region and make sure it is a healthy job center for years to come and maintain our economic engine. He says Kevin Little from the Chamber of Commerce said this isn’t about trains or buses, they support creation of RTA to create a regional body. Very few people disagree that we need regional coordination, sales tax is the sticking point. Need to talk about what we get for the money and the people who think transit might be a good idea can look at that and then vote. Some think RTA supporters are weakly in favor of referendum, he says that is not true, it provides legitimacy for the RTA, it allows people to decide. He says this is bout congestion and asks if we want to be Atlanta or Minneapolis or Austin. Referendum is important. He says there will be 9 members of the RTA and all appointing authorities say that they will have a referendum. He talks about Doyle going back on his word about supporting something I missed, but he went back on his word. This isn’t like this, we would have to have 5 people go back on their word. He says he wants to defend Transport 2020 and commuter rail because people attacked it, but that isn’t why we are here. Thinks that we will have a referendum on buses or rail. He asks for the people want April ballot, what would the question be? Would it be about if we hate commuter rail? It would mean nothing because not developed and proposed by the body that would implement it. He says it is highly undemocratic to do it county wide. He says there are 35,000 commuters into Dane County every day, and just like we shouldn’t vote on Lambeau field tax even if we go to their games, they shouldn’t vote on this tax. People come in from outside of Dane County and pay sales taxes, but people also come in from China and those visitors bring in $6M just from tourists. The referendum is critical, he has a deep commitment to it and hopes commuter rail is in the plan but there may not be, and in some ways, when there is a referendum on a package, this will be the most transparent thing we can do. We are trusted to represent our constituents and make decisions for them. This body will lay out what they will do and then vote and then do it. Doesn’t get any more democratic.
Martz asks for Corporation Council to summarize the memo.
Corporation Council says the question asked was what effect does his resolution have on what we are doing today. She says it has no effect because this supersedes what happens now. Previous one has county wide RTA, after state law came out then Bruskewitz introduced her language and then had McDonell had his which also addressed state law as it exists, those new resolutions superceded original.
Martz says there was specific language, but that was not what was passed. Martz asks if the resolution is changed, does the same rule apply to what might pass.
Corporation Council says the state law changed it.
Martz says that if state law changed what would happen?
Corporation Council says that would to say.
Martz says that all of us are confronted by people here tonight, none of us are respected or trusted, a lot of people have some concerns about whether we are doing our job or if they have respect for us. Having said that, chair McDonell has some valid points, he just disagrees that there is another way to resolve this that might be palatable to everyone.
MARTZ AMENDMENT TO CREATE “SHADOW RTA” AND POSTPONE VOTE ON RTA
Martz makes a motion as follows:
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the provisions of this Resolution (other than this papagraph adn the paragraphs relating to the conduct of a referendum) shall go into effect only after the Dane County Board adopts by resolution after the date hereof, but no later than March 31, 2010, the initial RTA plan to be adminsitered by the Board of the RTA made under sec. 66.1039, State, which RTA plan shall be initially drafted by a commission, to be called the “RTA Plan Commission”, which commission shall consist of the persons to be appointed by the various appointing authorities to the Board of the RTA and under sec. 66.1039, Stats, as if such Board was then and there coming into existence, whose chair and other officers shall be elected by the members, and whose commissioners shall serve without pay and at the pleasure of their appointing authorities, for a term to end on March 31, 2010″
Wiggie seconds.
Martz says if we approve RTA today, we will not have a voice in anything. What he is saying here is to formulate the plan, and form a commission, move ahead just like they would if they were appointed and come up with a plan, then presented to the county board with the dollar amount and costs and then at that point, they will have the info and the public with have the info to make an educated decision about approving the RTA and they can approve the policies and procedures and costs. He hopes people will take a good look at it, it’s a good solution, give people satisfaction that they are a part of this. He will have an opportunity to have a kick at the can and he would feel more comfortable.
Levin says that this is appointed by authorities and will end but people want continuity, this might cause people to feel more disenfranchised.
McDonell says this is like a shadow RTA and the purpose of creating it is to put together a plan for a Nov ballot when high turn out and we want to get them going. This one create a commission, disband and create another one, if don’t like RTA it’s a good idea but convoluted if you think RTA is a good idea.
deFelice says he understands the intent and compliments him on the accountability, beucase what we got from state was an incomplete work. He asks corporation council if they can do this.
Corporation Council says can’t do it, creates RTA as a separate public body and because of that, nothing the county board can do – can’t tell it what its plan has to be. The statute was created to make the board independent, even if we did it the RTA would have to accept it or agree to abide by it.
Martz says that verbiage here will not require RTA to take these recommendations, they will be recommendations, they can make that clear in the language if necessary. Appointing authorities appointments don’t need to go out of business, they would not have the ability to tax, but can do what they would otherwise do. The only thing that would happen is that board could look at it.
Corporation Council says they can create a commission to make recommendations but should probably change the language.
Stoebig says that he is nervous about the amendment. Seems like trying to create new statutory language which we don’t have the authority and power to do. Could see language requesting that in the by-laws they put in provisions to present it to he county board for review and comment. That would be consistent with stautatory ability of RTA to incorporate by-laws. Whatever transit plan is developed will change as communities opt in. Will they have to go through the same process for all amendments in the future?
Bruskewitz says Martz amendment points out that we have very little influence once RTA is formed as speakers pointed out, this is the precursor to the RTA so at least the board can get its arm around the RTA. She appreciates Mcdonell’s comments but she has a different opinion about how this was formed. Before we turn this over why not get our own thoughts about what we want, even tho they don’t have to listen to us.
They announce someone found a very expensive camera lens if anyone is missing it.
Ferrell asks if amendment tells RTA what do do and they can’t right? Corporation council agrees that they can’t tell the RTA what to do.
What about he binding referendum language in deFelice’s amendment, how is that different?
Corporation Council she says deFelice’s amendment has no authority either.
Ferrell asks if it is a useless gesture, she quickly says yes. But then she apologizes for being so blunt. Hendrick notes that she forgot to sugar coat that.
Matano notes that Martz opposes the RTA and urges colleagues to pretend its legal and vote it down in rapid order.
McDonell reads from letter from County Executive, and Mayors and he can’t read the letter so he paraphrases – they encourage us to enact RTZ with all speed so they can get to work and they don’t need a different committee.
ROLL CALL
Aye: Downing, Ferrell, Jensen, Martz, O’Laughlin, Ripp, Salov, Schlicht, Solberg, Wiggie, Bruskewitz
No: deFelice, DeSmidt, Duranczyk, Erickson, Hampton, Hesselbein, Hulsey, Kostelic, Levin, Manning, Matano, McDonell, Miles, Opitz, Richmond, Rusk, Schmidt, Stoebig, Stubbs, Vedder, Veldran, Wheeler, Willett, Bayrd, Hendrick.
Absent: Gau
Fails 11 – 25
DISCUSSION ON MAIN MOTION
McDonell calls roll call – but its ignored.
Willet says what they haven’t heard is about the borrowing authority. This board has for years put additional money into capital projects, we tie our kids hands with debt for years and we are creating another authority for more debt. Only it will be paid by a sales tax. This might be the right thing but not now, we can’t pay our share, going into debt, one sup said we haven’t maxed the credit card yet, but the wallet is empty, no more dollars, have to quit spending, at some point we have to say no even if it’s a good project, we have no money, no more borrowing, vote no, throw the whole thing out.
MOTION TO PUT REFERENDUM ON BALLOT IN APRIL
Bruskewitz makes a motion that the resolution would be effective only after a countywide referendum in April 2010. Schlicht seconds.
They pause to determine if this is in order.
Hendrick rules that this isn’t in order. He says you can’t introduce same matter twice in same tern of county board and this was resolution 69 with same language except typo. Ruled not in order and asks if she would like to challenge the ruling of the chair. Bruskewitz says yes.
The question is should the chair’s ruling be sustained.
Bruskewitz says that her concern is that the county has the ability to do a county wide binding referendum before the RTA is permitted to be formed, her resolution was buried in committee, put on an agenda so it couldn’t be discussed and failure to consider this is a terrible affront to the public, while may not address your ruling, would just like the public understand what is happening here.
ROLL CALL
No: Downing, Ferrell, Hampton, Jensen, Martz, O’Laughlin, Ripp, Salov, Schlicht, Solberg, Wiggie, Willett, Bruskewitz
Aye: deFelice, DeSmidt, Duranczyk, Erickson, Hesselbein, Hulsey, Kostelic, Levin, manning, Matano, McDonell, Miles, Opitz, Richmond, Rusk, Schmidt, Stoebig, Stubbs, Vedder, Veldran, Wheeler, Bayrd, Hendrick
Absent: Gau
Ruling sustained 23 – 13
DISCUSION
Bruskewitz has some very grave concerns about letter they got from the County Executive and mayors, it is unclear by what authority they can conduct a referendum.
Corp Council says this been answered, they are a separate gov entity and general statutes provide that such entities may hold referendum.
Bruskewitz says that a body such as this, especially after the governor’s veto, that there is some question about this. Corporation Council disagrees.
Bruskewitz says that you are not the attorney for the RTA, that is your opinion. How are we going tot have a referendum within the RTA area. Idea that all of the towns that are partially in were all in or all out. We just heard that is not true. Sales tax will be charged along actual physical border says Bob MacDonald. How is it going to conduct a referendum?
Corp Coucnil says that this is the same way that the state or any other body would have a referendum, not just her opinion, it is what the statute provides. They would do it just like you would do.
Bruskewitz says it appears that procedurally how referendum is done in the statute, but legislature gives certain specific authority to have a referendum.
McDonell asks for point of order, Corporation Council gave opinion, Bruskewitz doesn’t agree and they should move on to debate instead of discussing this. Hendrick says he is counting her time as debate.
Bruskewitz says it should go to the government accountability board because she thinks County Executive and others have stated clearly they want a referendum, we haven’t seen any indication of how it will be held. We should send it to the attorney general to get an opinion- the way the body was created in the budget bill leaves questions and they need to get them answered.
Stoebig says that when the language was enacted, the veto’d language doesn’t show up in statute any more and this is what we have in terms of the authority. He reads the resolution – he says that the language, as broad as it is, gives the authority the ability to direct a binding referendum on the sales tax. Maybe corp council can mull on that for a while, but that is what he reads. They can have that referendum requirement as part of their by laws and it seems like we have that authority
Opitz is offering breakfast (donut holes) to folks in the room due to the late hour . . .
Ferrell asks who or what resources will newly created RTA use to carry the provisions in the resolution out? Will it be county staff? What is the money end of it?
Corporation Counsil says that RTA is independent and only has resource the statute gives it – its up to them to use what the statute gives them to pass their bylaws and decide how to raise money and if do a referendum. No county money is committed or available beyond potential tax. No county money.
Ferrell says that even if imposed a tax, they could be in business today and takes 120 days for a sales tax to go into effect, where will they get resources? Issue bonds based on ability to tax. But no bylaws to sell the bonds, need attorney to draft those.
McDonell volunteers to answer the question. He says that comptroller has illness in family and that is why he is not here. Having spoken to mayors, especially Mayor Dave, they have volunteered Metro Staff to work on bus plan, Allen has agreed to volunteer some time, can meet in room here in the building.
Ferrell asks what resources besides room will county be giving?
McDonell says public works director would be available to answer something, nothing in budget, only transportation staff might have an interest.
Wiggie says that asks what state statute gives RTA power to go to referendum?
Corporation Council says that in general it is in statutes but has no citation, Bruskewitz hands him the statute.
Wiggie asks about people that appoint said they would guarantee that they would go to referendum, there is no law, will they have to take their word for it? Yes.
Salov has question for planning staff. What is the affect of land that might be needed for park and rides and train station. They aren’t here, asks corporation council, says she can’t be accurate enough to help.
Bruskewitz asks if this will be like MATC board that can issue bonds and conduct referenda and so on. In order to get the body started, they need to write their bylaws, who will write it? That’s up to them. The members can volunteer. We are turning over the decision that could be hundreds of millions to a body that has no resources to start out and we expect them to just get volunteers, hard to believe that would happen. Ask them, to think about this, they are putting together a body with incredible power with no resources for it, is that really what you are intending? I would ask the other supervisors if that is what they intend after addressing chair. She finds this incredulous. Concerned about the referendum and would like there to be some way to get some assurance from someone in the room that we will get a referendum besides the letter saying that we will try real hard, what guarantee do we have, or is this just a done deal and the public is shut out and if that is what is happening it is shameful and she is embarrassed, backroom deals win. The state law was passed at 2;30 in the morning, with the governor vetoing part of it. She needs more than a letter saying for sure we will do it, don’t want people of the county to foret that. Idea that you would support something that would allow body to start this way is a farce.
MOTION TO POSTPONE
Willett makes a motion to postpone til first meeting in June. Seconded by Schlict. Says there is alot of public who wishes to speak and by burying 69 in committee and “playing games” and not letting that happen.
Chair notes he is out of order to accuse members of the board to be “playing games”.
Willett says that by leaving 69 in committee doesn’t do this body justice, but postponing it would allow that resolution to get debated. Would also allow a resolution if in order, to get done.
ROLL CALL
No: Downing, Ferrell, Hampton, Jensen, Martz, O’Laughlin, Ripp, Salov, Schlicht, Solberg, Wiggie, Willett, Bruskewitz
Aye: deFelice, DeSmidt, Duranczyk, Erickson, Hesselbein, Hulsey, Kostelic, Levin, manning, Matano, McDonell, Miles, Opitz, Richmond, Rusk, Schmidt, Stoebig, Stubbs, Vedder, Veldran, Wheeler, Bayrd, Hendrick
Absent: Gau
Motion fails 23 – 13
DISCUSSION
Opitz says that at the Madison area Transportation Planning Board they talked talked about the resolution and it had unanimous support except one (Bruskewitz). MPO can provide technical expertise to assist other jurisdiction to staff the RTA, second under federal and state law all federally funded programs must be approved by MPO, they control the purse strings to the transit system. MPO controls local adopted plans, if plans are inconsistent they have controlling authority. MPO is entirely elected officials, there is accountability.
MOTION ON MISSING LANGUAGE
Wiggie asks McDonell about the missing language that was ommitted in the resoltion that says that the RTA may transact business.
Wiggie moves to put the language in. McDonell seconds.
While Wiggie is giving them the language, McDonell is standing there waiting to speak and he says Wiggie said he could speak, Hendrick reminds him he is running the meeting. 🙂
They are trying to determine the intent of the motion. They thought this was going to be a quote form the statute.
Wiggie explains that if we vote on something, we want to make sure the public knows what authority it has. It is the wording from the legislature.
McDonell says that intent was to copy the language, Attorney Gault must have dropped that line. [Just like section 8?? Grrrr . . . .]
O’Laughlin asks corp council if an when authority is approved, can they adopt a wheel tax? No, not authorized.
This motion passes unanimously on voice vote
DISCUSSION
O’Laughlin says he heard that a county wide referendum was “highly undemocratic” and he would like to add a subsection and call it highly unbusiness-like – he heard Madison tax payers pay $10M and cost the $120 and now RTA will assume that debt. He says there were 294 people who registered or spoke [I think those were just the registrants], pretty balanced opinion about the process. 158 to 139 and here they are at 1:20. He says this is about rail, no its not they will say, but if we go back 6 to 9 months, you will see that it was rail that was the main component of the RTA and now it is something else, Madison transit or buses or rapid transit extension. If 294 of 400,000 people came here, this is not a reflection or a sincere vote to approve this. On the taxing authority starting a business with no bylaws, staff, money or space and rushing to aprrpove at 1;30 in the morning. He isn’t satisfied that this is ready for prime time. This will impact us for years to come.
Hulsey says that as a Madison taxpayer and with a neighborhood clogged with traffic, this is about more than trains, its about a transportation planning system and what we are doing tonight is like creating a school board to come up with a plan – someone had to create them, create body and structure and then voters will have a chance to decide – do they want to purchase this system. We don’t have to wait til 2:30 to do that.
Stoebig says a speaker quoted lyman Anderson by saying that we have to save the cities to save the farmland. The livability and survive-ability of the community is dictated by the mobility options for people, young and old. He volunteers with AARP and one of national policy programs is livability and mobility options whether street and roar improvements to make walking and biking easy or transit options with convenient schedules, this is about the future, not about our political future, if that is all we are worried about then we are not doing the right thing.
Martz wants to speak, Hendrick says that he spoken twice.
Wiggie says that he had emails 3 to 1 or 4 to 1 against it. He says they are concerned about having no voice in this and having an unelected, unaccountable boty who can raise their own pay that will be there for 4 years. He says one constituent says this is taxation with misrepresentation. They don’t have faith in the rural area that this won’t just be taking over a bankrupt Madison Metro system (when did it go bankrupt?), In Marshall or Deerfield they would like a bus and they should all get to vote. Says he is not sure if anyone changed their mind, a lot of lobbying going on. He says this might end up in court and then I missed the rest of what he said except that he urged them to vote no.
Salov says that his district has 8 villages and towns and he went to meetings with all of them. He looked at all the emails and looked emails from people in district and had conversations with them. Overwhelmingly encouraged him to vote no, know that county needs transportation strategy, but this isn’t his style, this aches him, his constituents made him aware of that. He says he asked about zoning because we take zoning decisions seriously, and it is like I ran into a wall, no staff here to answer the question. If RTA supercedes local zoning input, people in Town of Medina will have a problem with that. There are alot of questions about how this impacts local municipalities, especially the 8 in his district. Also concerned that there are no resources, but people volunteer, will they not get paid? Taxpayers are paying for those “volunteers” and that is taking away from other needs in the county like 3% cuts. Where is the money coming from? People pay and they will pay dearly this year. This is a poor business plan, he regrets this cuz goal is a good one, strategic transportation plan, going about it wrong, vote it down.
Ferrell – Long time ago, 8:00 yesterday wanted to ask rep from THRIVE how many other counties want to be in RTA, bet it would have been zero. Look at the map, look at the borders, no offense to drunken sailors but this looks like it was drawn by them, doesn’t cover all of Dane County, how is this a region? Every other RTA is at minimum one county, we don’t even have half a county, not a region, not a RTA. Less than perfect statute, allowed for referendum, allowed RTA to consider transferring 25% to highway project so other governing bodies, could have gone to roads or trains and been multi-modal system. Gov vetoed that language. This is committee work, send it back, time to tell state that this legislation is not good enough for Dane County, we deserve better. Meantime we can keep moving forward, hold a referendum, send it back, vote no.
Rusk says there is a lot about this he doesn’t like, on the referendum the state legislature got it right with a binding referendum which we all wanted and needed to have and governor vetoed it out. Next best thing is elected officials making appointments pledged they will make people say publicly that we will have a referendum, convinced we will have a referendum. No way it will pass unless solid plan people can get behind and that will be a lot of work. Need RTA to pull together and get a plan. A lot of talk about rail, thinks alot of people like trains, but we need federal support, and he doesn’t see that happening for many years. Sees RTA going forward with a different plan and have referendum and it will pass or not.
Richmond says he went door to door 8 years ago saying we needed a RTA and tonight is our chance. Appreciates the concern for details, especially referendum, but doesn’t think we should throw the baby out with the bath water. Heard it is a bad time to create it but the only reason it is a bad time is because we should have done it sooner. Represents Madison and Fitchburg and both support the RTA, the only thin that bothers him is the growth, he says that Dane County has added 64,000 since 1999/2000 which is 2.5 Sun Prairies, 5 Stoughtons or 22 Town of Springfields, people want to live here and we need to do planning and we need to do it on a regional basis. People in his district and traffic starts a 5am and if you see the traffic you would know why waiting for 8, 9, 10 years, thinks it will work and vote yes and hope you will too.
ROLL CALL
Aye: deFelice, DeSmidt, Erickson, Hulsey, Levin,Manning, Mtanno, McDonell, Miles, Opitz, Richmond, Rusk, Schmidt, Stoebig, Stubbs, Vedder, Veldran, Wheeler, Bayrd, Hendrick
No: Downing, Duranczyk, Ferrell, Hampton, Hesselbein, Jensen, Kostelic, Martz, O’Laughlin, Ripp, Salov, Schlict, Solberg, Wiggie, Willett, Bruskewitz
Absent: Gau
Passes 20 – 16
Move to adjourn at 1:40, McDonell, Opitz.
Good night!
