Last night I attended the Public Works and Transportation Committee of the County Board. Why you might ask? For the following item:
Res. 69, 2009-10 / Authorizing And Requiring A Countywide Referendum On The Levying Of A Sales Tax To Fund A Dane County Regional Transportation Authority
I was kind of curious what was going on. In my estimation, a whole lot of game playing. And its hard to make anything out of the final vote. However, I think discussion is a good introduction to the issues if you haven’t been following along. What happens to Metro, when to have the referendum, what needs to happen before the referendum, how does it work with high speed rail, will there be a bus terminal, will buses come first, etc, etc, etc [A few comments sprinkled throughout.]
PUBLIC COMMENT
Bill Richardson from Middleton – representing Great Train Robbery of Mt Horeb – supports voting for the tax increase, but questions that the public should be asked if they want commuter trains for the area. The public has never been asked if they want the commuter trains. If they don’t want the train – address congestion and pollution, train doesn’t address these issues. Thinks the trains will add to congestion and pollution. Even with commuter trains the congestion will increase. Thinks buses would be a better option at a lesser cost. 11,000 passengers each day is not enough for the cost. Questions the costs of the system. 1 passenger for bus system would be $1.50, $65 to add a rail passenger. Supports resolution 69 in its original form.
Ron Wolf from Waunakee – Dane County Grassroots Network – Concerned RTA is synonymous with commuter rail. That is not the case. Thinks commuter rail should be more available to more riders. Commuter rail might not be the most efficient way to move people, but it is not cut and dried that RTA will automatically create a commuter rail system. Thinks express buses and park and ride lots will come first. Thinks even Jefferson county would like to have access to they system. UW plan is to build more research facilities but no more plans for parking, built on an Isthmus so we have to think about how we will handle the increases in population and congestion. Doesn’t think that the whole Dane County should vote if they are not impacted. Pollution is going to be a major problem. If take vote to entire Dane county then you have put in a negative bias, people in outlying areas don’t see the advantage to fund commuter rail or buses in the Madison area. Would like to see the vote be held in October so that we would have time to communicate this to people, don’t do it in April.
Royce Williams – Citizen’s advisory committee for the MPO- against the resolution because this is not the way to move forward. The constituency for the vote is greater than the area affected and there is no way it should go to a vote in all of Dane County. Its like the stadium tax. If we are going to make regional government work, we should only let the people being taxed vote on the tax. Is personally in favor, but we have to do this right. RTA is not trains, its about having a way to develop transit in a regional way. The RTA covers 26 units of government and they need the mechanism to do it on a regional basis. Madison is important, but the surrounding communities have to be part of the region and participate as a region. Need to slow this down, November 2010 would be better as more people would vote. We need to help the people understand what they are getting before we vote. A committee should look at these issues before the RTA is formed. Big question is what will happen to Metro, will the city let the RTA take over the $45M system? How will the costs be balanced between the sales and property tax? Intercity bus and rail terminal – will have a big impact on the RTA. Hopes that the referendum will be later and look at a later date. Finally, he says that rail should not be part of the referendum, it should happen after the expanded bus system is determined and when the RTA board is in operation – then they could decide if we should move forward.
Bruce Wilson, Middleton – representing Madison Area Bus Advocates and in opposition. Doesn’t think that we disagree on everything, but do disagree on some things. He thinks the issue before the committee and county board is to make a decision to a) Kill the rail project and b) get the RTA right. Bus advocates say that the resolution is premature and counter-productive to creating a good RTA. Yes, the resolution has to talk about more than commuter rail. Bus rapid transit to Middleton and West, Verona along 151, Fitchburg (will have some express service), and East Towne is another place and the bus advocates are fighting for all of these things and doesn’t think the battle will be over real quickly if no RTA. Oct 1 city and metro will have a forum on Bus Rapid Transit. It would be a shame if talking about bus rapid transit if no RTA. Afraid resolution will stop process to expand the bus system. Agrees there should be a committee to look at this. Resolution is too soon. Could agree on somethings, need a referendum at some point, RTA shouldn’t be all about rail, bus service should be looked at as an option, can’t wait for commuter rail to start. Need RTA to do more than just rail planning. This isn’t going to be done by the tooth fairy, we need a mechanism to get this done.
QUESTIONS OF SPEAKERS
Martz asks Wolf about Madison having the majority of the RTA funding and if he is aware that Transport 2020 still has the street car for Madison. Wolf says his impression is that it might be an option, but it might not be definite. Martz says his whole point is that he would like to see that if you are really interested in buses and says that the Transport 2020 emphasis should be on buses not street car and trains. More sympathy if bus transportation throughout the city is proposed, not commuter rail. Says Madison will get all the money and people throughout the county doesn’t want pay for it. Opitz asks him to ask a question and he eventually does. Wold says that the RTA won’t put in commuter rail, they are supposed to look at transportation. Commuter rail should have its own referendum. RTA will coordinate transit and hopefully show people how they will benefit. Martz asks how much more time we need, says there is a plan – how long do people need to be educated or “indoctrinated”. [Nice spin.] Wolf says we need to work out who will control Metro, we need express buses from outlying areas. Rail isn’t going to be first, it might be years down the road. We need to make rail easy for people outside of Madison to have access to it. Martz asks if a non-elected board should tax residents. Wolf says we need an equitable way to get people on the board – should be representative of the people being affected.
Wiggy asks Wilson where the money will come from to have mechanism if the RTA isn’t in place? Wilson says that staff from MPO and others should volunteer to staff an advisory committee to look at the issues. He says public works and transportation committee should staff it. MPO might be able to put some money in there. Wiggy asks if tax payers won’t pay for it? Wilson says yes. He says big question is what is the initial program funded by RTA, it might not be the full .5% at first. The program should be laid out, we need to know what projects will be funded. We need a bus terminal, and some planning for express bus service in various corridors and those line items should be given to the public before they vote. Wiggy asks who picks the group to advise. Wilson says county board should decide. Could be based on population, or maybe various interest groups – labor, business, and others. We should let this go on and on, we should give the committee a year. If the committee collapses then go to referendum. Worried that a program with bus being part of the projects, then the people can decide.
Wiggy asks Royce Williams askes him why he’d rather not see referendum voted on by non-RTA areas. He asks what if some communities don’t vote for it, can they opt out. Royce says that would bad. He says the Oregon and Deforest should be able to opt in. What is going to happen when the new census is done? If we’re going to do it by region, everyone should participate. Yes some communities will not vote for it,but that’s why its regional. Wiggy says Madison is the 500 pound gorilla and can vote for it without others support. Royce says that there are 140,000 people outside of Madison and those numbers have gone up quite a bit since the last census.
Veldran asks Williams if MPO talked about RTA – he says he’s on the Citizen’s Advisory Board – says they would like to be plugged in and waiting for people to ask them. Veldran asks about the areas in the region. Royce says that he thinks Oregon will be on the boundary. Also says that in 2010 he thinks Oregon and Deforest will be in the area but we won’t know til 2013.
Martz asks Williams what happens if 2010 census doesn’t include Oregon and DeForest would you expect them to pay a sales tax. Williams says its their choice, if they don’t opt in they won’t pay whatever tax is proposed.
Martz says the legislation is confusing because other regions across the state include other counties. He asks why that’s not the case here. Williams says that where there is a MPO and that it is imperative that the MPO boundaries are the minimal area. In other areas it has been a screwed up mess and we need to move forward, but we need to do it right. Ours it the largest area where an RTA is approved. He talks about other state legislation.
Martz asks about express bus service – Promega in Fitchburg and Epic in Verona – are they successful. Williams doesn’t know.
Opitz asks about SB 205 and the assembly bill. Williams says that they are the general RTA language. Madison was superseded in the budget.
Martz asks Richardson what he feels about what people have said and how he would respond. [Wow! Nice softball.] Says they agree on alot of things – support enhanced bus service because it is inefficient and flexible. Says that if problem on a train track, they are stuck. Says county roads are rated F. M to Verona should have been improved long ago. Says the term “regional” is a joke. Chicago is 5 counties and millions of people, lost $400M last year and spent alot to rebuild and it is well coordinated with bus system. This should be called the Madison system. Other counties don’t want to join Dane County – they’ve seen how Dane County will dictate to other people. They are not interested. An express bus system would be good from the outlying villages. But, they can do that now. Middleton has a great bus system, $250,000 per year. Middleton pays Madison.
Martz asks if there are any RTAs that break even? Richardson says no privately run systems, you don’t make money by moving people. People who drive a car pay for it themselves – private vehicles. Market system should work. Community cars are a good idea. He says it costs 61 cents per mile per passenger mile for RTAs as opposed to .5 cents for a car. 120 times difference. Cars are self sustaining through.
DISCUSSION
Opitz asks about county road ratings. Staff says under 5% are rated F. Opitz also notes that Middleton pays $390,000 for the bus system. $300,000 – $350,000 for Fitchburg. [Kinda pointed out that the previous guy had little credibility with the numbers.]
Opitz says Bruskewitz asked them to postpone tonight, but he set the meeting scheduled around her schedule. [Curious, I hear she was the one complaining they weren’t acting fast enough.]
Wiggy asks for a point of order. He doesn’t have a copy. They said they had it at the last meetig and the meeting before that one. They point out it was also emailed. [Again, the conservatives trying to stall?]
They get into a conversation about what the motion is before them. Motion at last meeting was postponed. Hendrick walks in and Opitz asks for advice. They determine the motion to approve from the last meeting is the motion before them now.
Schmidt moves a substitute. It essentially said that only people in the RTA area would vote, not all of Dane County. It moves the date to the November election. It also says that they could levy a tax “up to” 5%. Veldran seconds. Schmidt says that more voters in the fall, no specifics before us – data can be manipulated – wants to see the RTA appointed and put in place and have discussion and come up with proposals for variety of options and that is what should be put to the voters so they can be educated about what they are voting on. She says it can be up to .5%, need specifics, not a vague misleading question. She wants to hear what voters think about specific facts by those who will be impacted. People outside RTA should not be voting.
Martz asks if legal counsel has looked at it? Clerk would administer the vote and wonders if the county can exempt some areas from the vote. Also asks if the two communities that might change after the census, if they vote and then it changes, what happens in 2010, they won’t have representation. Can the county create a sales tax for only certain municipalities and exempt others? [Conservatives trying to stall again?]
Veldran says that we can’t change the title of the resolution and with the questions, suggests they just vote it down and have that be the recommendation of the committee.
Wiggy asks if Hendrick has something to say? If don’t change title what happens? Hendrick says that the county board chair has ruled you can’t change the title. He says that the state statute has a boundary so no legal question. Says Martz’s other two questions are good, but the substitute could express the intent of the committee. He also said that Gau asked him to tell the committee that he would appreciate it if they would move it out of the committee tonight. [Apparently, he didn’t get the conservative memo, to stall. Or maybe the others didn’t get the message to get it out of committee, I’m not sure, but they sure seem scattered.]
Martz asks Hendrick if the state law allows Oregon and DeForest to opt in, is there enough language that if it is enacted today, could they alllow them to add them later after the census.
Hendrick says that he is not 100% sure, but the he thinks the jurisdictional area can change after the census – that is what is in the law.
Wiggy says there are too many questions, if we vote it out we should have no recommendation because of the legal questions. Wiggy makes that motion. Notetaker not in the room to record that but the brief him when he gets back and after a discussion about what motions would be in order.
Martz agrees with Wiggy. Says questions have not been answered. Let it be deicded at Personnel and Finance. So he supports it. [Wow, you rarely see committee members deciding that what they think doesn’t count. What an odd statement.]
Opitz is concerned about no recommendation.
Schmidt says that there isn’t any outstanding legal questions. The statute is what guides the areas impacted. All this resolution does is support a referendum consistent with the statute. With respect to the title minor changes are allowed and doesn’t see where opt in or census don’t affect the resoltuion. This just says that the referrendum would be voted on by those who are impacted.
Opitz says some of hte questions raised have been raised before and there are some new ones. He thinks that they are not ready to recommend a referendum in April. So he can’t support the resolution as drafted. Sees potential issues with modifications. Sensitive to need to let other committees weigh in. So, motion for no recommendation, denial or a sub would be the three options before them.
Martz says that they have been saying there isn’t enough information for 3 years, but people who say that don’t have a list of what would be enough for the voters. Frustrated by this. Would like to see a list from people who think the voter doesn’t have enough information and discuss that before we move forward. Doesnt’ know wht would satisfy people to get the info they need.
Opitz says he has listed those questions
– Effect on Madison Metro
– Intercity buses and high speed rail
– And [doh!] the three questions Martz questions asked earlier.
— Can they have only part of the county vote?
— What happens to areas that might be added after the census?
— Can they tax only certain municipalities?
Says resolution as written is problematic because of the questions and the spring election when turnout is low. Especially likes that speakers have areas of agreement.
Wiggy says that parks referendum was in April. He also says that if you deny it, when it gets to the baord you have to deny denial and they can’t make amendments. Opitz says its different than zoning. Opitz says that a motion of the other committees can be brought up. Hendrick says Opitz is right. Board rules say that motion for no recommendation, if any other committee recommedation – the action of the next committee is the action before the board. If the motion was indefinite postponement, anyone on the board can move approval to get it on the board floor.. He says zoning committe rules are set by statute and thatthe county board is limited by what they can decide. [I am constantly amazed that the board members, especially someone on the Board as long as Wiggy, don’t know their own rules.]
Veldran says that the wheels got in motion because of the resolution – questions that aren’t answered, the resolution created the timeline they are on – those valid questios need to be answered.
Schmidt says that they shouldn’t do no recommendation and doesn’t want to send the message that they don’t want a referendum. Wants to send the message that we are going to have a referendum in the fall for those affected. Doens’t want to stall or say that they won’t go to referendum.
Opitz says concern about changing the title. He says that he wants to reaffirm that they support referendum. Shares Martz’s frustration. Asks to vote against no referendum. Denial might not be right either, would like to revisit the sub.
Vote on no recommendation –
Aye – Martz, Wiggy, Veldran
No – Schmidt, Opitz
And that’s that. The County Board is really crazy with their rules. I can’t believe that whatever committee votes first creates the motion that will be on the floor of the County Board. It just seems like it encourages them to hurry up and make an uninformed decision. Goofy.
