City staff had a lot to say about how they are treated in the workplace and the results of the City of Madison Workplace Climate Study were quite embarrassing.
I wrote about the report back in January and shared some of the disturbing comments. The Common Council Executive Committee heard from representatives of the Multicultural Affairs Committee (MAC) and Women’s Initiatives Committee (WIC) as well as the Human Resources and Department of Civil Rights staff and the Mayor’s office about what the next steps are to address the concerns in the report.
You can watch the full meeting here
MAC and WIC presentation
This is an informational presentation by the co-chairs of MAC (Multi-cultural Affairs Committee) and WIC (Women’s Initiatives Committee) to join them. They were only introduced as Tori and Mahanth. Norm Davis form Civil Rights and Harper Donohue from Human Resources are also there. Bidar asks them for an overview from the committees.
They have a one page brief overview of what they will discuss. Tori is the Chair of the Women’s Initiatives Committee and their purpose is to partner with the City of Madison to involve women in all job positions, decisions, policies, and functions through advocacy and education. They are made up of a group of employees that are representative of several departments in the City of Madison.
Mahanth Joishy is the Vice Chair of the Multi-cultural Affairs Committee, the chair Carla Garces couldn’t be here. He also wants to recognize Amy Deming who did a lot of work and was the former chair. She did a lot of work on this survey as well as the previous one over the years. She was the chair for about 5 years and she also couldn’t be here today. MAC is comprised of City of Madison employees and charged with addressing issues of concern to City of Madison employees from historically under-represented racial and ethnic groups. Its a very active group, its safe space to discuss some very sensitive topics.
Tori (I tried to find her name but I couldn’t find the minutes for that committee and its not in legistar) says in June of 2019 they conducted a workplace climate survey, its purpose was to take a snap shot of the current workplace climate and inform the work of the committees and help them form the cities priorities. The survey asked questions related to workplace culture and specifically centered on concerns of women and other marginalized genders and employees of color.
Joishy says that concerns around employee development and safe respectful workplaces emerged as the two major findings of the report.
Tori says they found that women and people of color and LGBTQ individuals experience harassment, discrimination and bullying. Women and people of color were more likely than average to experience harassment and one out of every 4 survey respondents experience or witnessed harassment, bullying or discrimination. They had about 900 respondents to the survey
Joishy says about 42% of respondents experienced harassment but never reported it. 41% of incidents were instigated by peers, 33% by supervisors and 18% by members of the public.
Tori says 1 out of 2 respondents were dissatisfied with the outcome after reporting and incident. 1 our of 4 respondents overall feel like their supervisor or manager do not handle disagreements effectively.
Joishy says a lot of employees do not have a clear understanding about how they are supposed to move their career forward or if they have received mentoring or not. A lot of employees claimed they did not get enough of that. Less than 1 out of 2 employees clearly understand how to move their career forward with the city or/and have received mentoring to help them grow in their job.
Tori says 43% do not believe employees have equal access to learning and development opportunities. 1 out of 4 white respondents reported receiving career mentoring but only 1 out of 8 African American respondents reported receiving career mentoring. When participating in the position study process 51% did not have a clear understanding of the process. 56% were dissatisfied with the outcome.
Joishy says the recommendations are to
- ensure a safe and respectful workplace environment for all employees.
- provide equitable access to professional development opportunities and mentoring
- assess and support pay equity within the organizations, specifically as it relates to race and gender
Thoughts on ensuring a safe and respectful workplace includes
- review policies, procedures and work rules
- review and update training for supervisors and staff on prevention and response to workplace incidents
- review rules of conduct and training for elected officials and committee members
- develop a reporting process for employees who wish to maintain anonymity to share their concerns
- plan for continuous communication, outreach to ensure employees understand their rights, how to report incidents and who can offer them support.
For equitable access to professional development opportunities and mentoring they recommend:
- using data and metrics to identify risk areas
- set targets and goals and measure impacts of different initiatives
- review and update training policies to include provisions and measures for equity and inclusion
- support and expand targeted training programs such as the women’s leadership conference that are designed to eliminate barriers in under-representation of all levels of leadership
For pay equity they recommend
- conduct regular citywide pay analysis
- address any gender or race/ethnicity gaps within the analysis
- analyze the city position study process through an equity lens
Tori says she talked to Norm earlier today and Harper as well and they have already been meeting with the Mayor’s office to outline a work plan related to these topics and they would like to ask council if there is any specific policy changes that need to be created as a result or ordinance changes they would ask for the council support.
Joishy says they are reaching out to a large number of organizations in the Madison area to share this data, just like they are doing with the CCEC and also gather ideas which they are collecting about how to respond to this data, to do better in these areas. Some of the data is quite dramatic and requires action from all of us, to work together. Our goal would be that next time they do a survey like this, they would like to see all the numbers improve without having to get defensive about individual departments and people.
HR and Civil Rights Department
Bidar ask Davis and Donohue for next steps. Davis thanks the council for their interest in this work. He says that MAC and WIC have been around for a while, and these organizations have really been transformed through the current and preceding leadership. He remembers the days when MAC was really focused on celebratory gatherings and WIC would hold bake sales just to raise money for Take Your Children to Work Day. But these two employee support groups that are really working hand in hand with HR with DCR have really been transformed to bring out these kinds of issues. It’s built on the foundation of the work that was done 4 or 5 years ago in the previous survey. He applauds the work done, and Joishy said we want to see the numbers improve, and we do but we also want to see the experiences improve. The data set is not only statistical, but its anecdotal. There is qualitative data and the experiences of our employees and the microaggressions they experience, we are interested in addressing all of those. The mayor’s office, my office, HR have been working to identify workplans. Some of the strategies are underway already. They are attempting to bring change in the organization and, as Manhanth said (except Tori said it) there may be policies that we need your assistance and support in changing. Ensuring a safe and respectful workplace environment for all employees really begins with having the end in mind. We have anti-harassment, non-discrimination policies, we have a mandatory training every three years for employees, but its not centered on defining the kind of workplace that we want and he thinks that through refining that policy, through refining out workplace violence policy, through refining our rules of conduct, we can really get at the kind of workplace that we want. And, admittedly, its a challenge. The City of Madison, 30 some agencies, a hugely diverse array of service that we provide across the city, various kinds of positions, it can be challenging. How do you develop a baseline. That’s our challenge and we need to do that for the good of our workforce. In the equitable access to professional development opportunities and mentoring, this is right in line with the results from the employee voice survey. We saw this across the organization. And they started some citywide initiative to address that professional development opportunities. What is striking is the statistic about 1 in 4 white employees having had those conversations and only 1 in 8 African-american employees. We want to make that consistent across the organization, but that means that we have to have some agreement across our agencies about what those standards are going to be. We have to develop city wide standards and make sure our agencies are holding to those. And then to assess and support pay equity within our organization, specifically as it relates to race and gender is a critical piece. It’s not going to be an easy piece, but that is something that if we can really impact the economics then we are going to impact the experience of our employees as well.
Donohue says “I feel like my man Norm said a lot”. They will have a presentation on Monday to the Department and Division Heads. They actually have started the discussions earlier this morning with the presentation in how we should be prepared to receive this information and he thinks that is a good place for us right now. The experiences we got from the data, these are real experiences and we need to lean in. He would encourage folks to actually have discussions with women folks of color, in regards to what they are experiencing in our workplace. As HR director he feels a certain level of ownership, but he knows this is real and he knows that we have to lean in. When he looks at the work plan for HR, and he looks at the recommendations that came from the results, he looks at a lot of the recommendations as low-handing fruit. Their workplan will be tailored around addressing these items and reporting back.
Alder Questions and Discussion
Harrington-McKinney thanks them for the authenticity of the report. It is what it is. It’s upsetting but you have to put it out there in order to really address it and she absolutely appreciates the “leaning in” and naming what’s important to be named. So thank you for your work. She says this is one of the most important pieces in her life here.
When was the last time that a survey of this magnitude and depth was done?
Donohue says 2015. Davis says 2014 and it was published in 2015. Tori says when that survey was completed it was just a MAC survey, this time around WIC asked MAC if they could partner with the survey, so this is the first time the Women’s Initiatives Committee has embarked on the survey of this type.
McKinney asks if there were any strong actions out of 2014 that we are seeing movement in? Or was it a report that was presented.
Donohue says there were quite a few presentations on steps that were taken in HR as well as DCR. This is me, speaking from my personal take on the results of some of the actions that we took. He thinks a lot of what they’ve done has been centered around training and unfortunately, he thinks we can get everyone to go to RESJI, workshops, we can have these discussions, but, from his perspective, he feels like they haven’t taken the next step in taking that information and doing something with it. For example, we talk about biases and microaggressions and certain things that people may say or do and how other folks may perceive those things, and we can all kind of agree when we are in those workshops that these kind of behaviors are problematic. While folks may have the best intentions in the world, certain folks may receive that information differently, those things are still happening. And its happening all throughout our organization. I think there is going to have to be that piece where there is that accountability if its among department heads, if its among alders, all throughout our organization we’re going to have to start holding folks accountable. There are certain things we are just going to have to stop doing and he hasn’t see that actually happen yet. It bothers him in the sense that we’re going what every organization does in regards to if there is an event, something happens, we’re trying to protect the city, make sure everyone goes through AMP 3-5 training, everyone knows who to report harassment, discrimination to. He came to the city in 2005 when everyone was being trained. We’re still having the same issues we were having 15 years ago, and even worse now, a lot of folks don’t even feel comfortable reporting some of the experiences they are having. It’s imperative that we make the next step and actually start holding ourselves accountable in treating each other better. It sounds easy to say, but we have to just do it.
McKinney says we can’t just check boxes, if there are policy changes that we need to be leaning into and looking at, she would ask them to seriously look at it and not just check the box. Hold us accountable as well. We need to identify what is missing. Harper, you ticked off 5 of my questions in your response. You’re right on target on looking at that, we do feel good, but its really time for us to stop doing “feel good” because our population is really diverse. Our city and our workers are really diverse and for 1 out of 4 of our city employees saying that they are not in a comfortable space, that is really concerning, so she is requesting that you really look at that and speak to that in a very powerful way.
In your survey you mentioned supervisors and the public, were any of the questions directed to how we as elected officials treat staff, staff of color? Was that addressed in any way?
Tori says that they had a question that outlined who was committing various acts of harassment, and so that is where the number came in, in terms of acts that were perpetrated by supervisors or managers. And then acts related to elected officials as well. There was cross talk I missed. They didn’t want to share it with respect to maintaining confidentiality. There were some pretty striking open ended comments they had so people could express themselves. They did see comments related to those things as well.
McKinney would like to schedule some time to go over the report one-on-one with her.
Sheri Carter says this work is fantastic and she thanks them for their work. She says a lot of corporations are right now implementing “stay and grow” and it sounds like that is something you guys are trying to achieve, where they are trying to make sure there is a path to promotions and to other position experiences. Whether they stay in the same department or go to another department. So she really appreciates them going in that direction even though it is not the typical “stay and grow” model. One of the things that she is concerned about is making sure that conversations stay in a safe place. She had an experience with a young lady who came to one of her neighborhood meetings that had been harassed not from the city, but harassed for 10 years and she finally quit, when she did her exit interview and said why she was quitting it was said, “you should have came to us”, but her supervisor threatened to fire her if she would report it. So some people find themselves in a tough situation – whether to report or deal with the harassment. So she really wants to make sure that stays in a safe place. That before they take action, they can at least release and talk about it without it going immediately back to the supervisor/manager/department head etc. She asks if the 1 in4 and 1 in 8, was the mentoring conversations or conversations about being promoted. Tori says it was about mentoring. Carter asks if that was with their superior? Tori says it could be anyone within the City. You could have mentors formal or informal. Carter says she is glad they have evolved into this, but other than your leadership conference for women, what other things are you looking at?
Donohue says that other things to support employees are affinity groups, they want to form groups for women in non-traditional fields to support and get together, for women of color, there are quite a few groups they are kicking around right now that they want to get some traction on.
Joishy says in the past these groups may have done celebratory things or fun things, we are still doing those, we’re still doing . . . Carter says “that’s good” . . . its the softer side of . . . Bidar says “we all need some of that” . . . he says they are doing educational fun things like Karl van Lith who retired did a whole thing about Australia, a history of Australia and the Australian people and cultures. He did one about India. And they can keep doing these every month. They are fun and also educational.
They say Joishy has also spearheaded an employee recognition program in the city, focused on all employees, but its about transforming our culture, its one of the first steps they can take to really build in some celebratory work. There is still the work being done by the RESJI – featured speakers every month, to talk about different aspects of racial equity and they get really good turnout from our various city employees. A lot of support from folks who are part of MAC and WIC. They are working on those pieces that are going to add that extra value to working for the city.
Tori says for WIC specifically they have participated a lot with the Women’s Leadership Series, they also went to the mayor and asked for more support for employees to attend the Black Women’s Leadership Conference as well. In 2019 they began working on it in 2018, but it was officially passed in 2019, the APM related to the lactation policy. And they also still actively work with public health to increase comfort rooms available to employees and sometimes citizens throughout the city. That is their first dive in to advocacy. And right now they are discussing there was an article in the New York Times related to the harassment that women public officials receive and that was brought to our agenda last meeting, so they are in the very beginning phases of discussing some action items surrounding that along with some on-going education as well.
Kemble asks about coming back to us with ordinance or policy changes, do you have anything in mind? And you talked about training, training, training but no accountability, what can we do to help with accountability. She is thinking especially around the structural areas that have been called out around position studies and grievance processes that people are so dissatisfies with. Have you don’t any thinking about that, do you have any ideas right off the bat.
Donohue says specifically when we talk about position studies there was a request for an equity analysis to be done, that is something that will happen most likely in the second quarterly. Rules of conduct they have already started that process. They will have an equity analysis on that as well. These are different things that will be updated with our APM. When you look at the recommendations they put forward, 80-90% of everything they said, he would put that in the low-hanging fruit, they are all things that we should do. If you have an interest he’d be more than happy to keep you all in the loop. This is going to be integrated in our workplan and he does plan on crossing these things off as we go. You will see updates in various APMs and city work rules.
Kemble asks about the equity analysis of the position study process. What does that look like.
Donohue says that right now 51% of the people who had an experience with that process were dissatisfied. Or didn’t know and 40% were dissatisfied with the results. He thinks a lot of that comes down to is communication. He’s not sure how familiar people in the room are about reclassification or position study processes are. They have been doing this dance for quite a few years now and its something that he knows we have to do better with in regards to communicating. About 10 years ago, about 2009 there was MPSEA, HR and members from council came together and they created most of the things that are right now in our plan. Throughout the years they have gotten feedback from employees about the timeliness of the studies, if there was a recommendation for a change would go to the date it was stamped in HR, so they have been making those advancements, but part of the problem, but whatever organization you are from, people don’t’ have a good grasp on the position study process. People don’t know what they need to do, there is a lot of bad information out there. Human Resource needs to communicate the expectations to the employees. It’s easy for him to say that when folks start the process, they have an idea about where they should be, there are folks in my office that will look at my class and say that they do the things that I do, but the totality of my responsibilities they don’t have that burden or they don’t have that privilege. There is a reason why I make more than everyone in my office, I think that we have to do a better job in communicating exactly what we are doing. We can’t settle or stop with the fact that in HR we kind of understand or expect that it is not necessarily the process, but sometimes its the outcome. If I”m expecting to make $100,000 and the results of this process is that I’m at 18-8 or 18-10, I’m going to be upset with that process. So its how we are communicating that. We want to give folks the opportunity, we will do an equity analysis, we will work with MPSEA, we’ll work with the unions, we want to make sure that if people have concerns we want to listen and if there is room to make changes to the process so that it is better understood by folks, they want to give consideration and make those changes.
Tori says they had a lot of conversations about the process with the Women’s Initiatives Committee and the equity analysis is an excellent first step because it really dives in to what we are doing, what we could do. It also gathers data which I think sometimes we lack. That will be great to have that information to help make a decision. It is important to include those that are impacted by the changes and she values the unions and associations, but making sure that we are also reaching out to MAC and WIC as well because we do have members that come to our groups that don’t always feel represented because of their gender and race, by their associations or unions. Making sure that we have avenues for all folks that are impacted to be involved is super important so we can make a well rounded good decision.
Joishy says that a lot of the training the city already does is good. The 3-5 training is very good. Supervisor Academy is really good, we spend a lot of time on this, I did supervisor academy last year. As supervision, what I do as a department head, is I go after this stuff really hard, and I come down really hard on this stuff, he thinks that has made an effect. I think people don’t want to do it anymore because they know that is going to happen. It’s not the nicest thing to say, but I think its effective and I think it works.
Samba Baldeh asks what the current intake process for complaints is?
It depends upon what type of complaint it is. If its discrimination or harassment based on a protected category, the track that would go is most likely APM 3-5 and that would go through the Department of Civil Rights. If there appears to be some sort of work rule violation or violence or bullying, that’s more of an HR track and that would be addressed through APM 2-33 with our rules of conduct. If someone is experiencing something they should report it to a supervisor or they can report it to HR or Department of Civil Rights and we’ll try to address it.
Tori says there was something in the survey about where people are actually reporting.
Baldeh asks if the process is explained to new hires as they come in? Do they clearly know how to make the reports or where to make them?
For APM 3-5, every city employee is required to go through training on APM 3-5. When we talk about work rules, information is given out during new employee orientation, we are looking at revisiting the way that we do that. Right now new employees will go through the, every Monday or Tuesday if Monday is a holiday or the offices are closed, we go through new employee orientation. For the most part that is centered around giving folks information so they can sign up for their benefits. We’ll give them different policies, we’ll briefly go through them, but we also do orientations a couple times a year, we are looking at improving that to quarterly or maybe even monthly, and we want to have a little more meat on those so we are not just rushing people through and throwing a bunch of information at folks, we’re actually trying to give them some information that they need so if they are experiencing some type of bullying or different things along those lines, they know where to go.
Baldeh asks if they think they are collecting all the data points? You made reference to the fact that this has been happening over and over and you don’t seem to be making a lot of progress, do you think you are collecting all the data that you need in order to really address the situation.
No.
Why is that?
Alot of what folks are experiencing are things that they are not reporting. You have quantitative data that is out there, but then he thinks about different conversations that he is regularly having with city employees with regard to discomfort that they are feeling, not feeling supported and its not one department in particular, its a general feeling that folks have and if I take a step back, it’s not only city employees, if I’m talking about some of the information I’m betting from women and folks of color, I think its this area. Folks who really know what to say, folks feel good about saying the right things, but actual behaviors that I’m hearing about and I’m witnessing is that we have a lot of work to do. So its hard to say, if we’re saying 25% of folks have experienced some type of microaggression, if its a joke, if its something that they just didn’t feel right about in the last year, he would challenge that. Because if folks are being honest, the numbers would actually be a lot higher. He talks to folks who say they experience microaggressions daily. He’s looking around and he’s assuming he’s not alone in feeling that way.
Tori says that there was hesitation to fill out the survey because of safety concerns. There were folks that stated they have filled out surveys before and we haven’t seen any change, so why should we fill out the survey. We would have folks talk to us about instances they didn’t think was harassment, but it was. She had folks come to her after the fact saying that they witnessed this in their departments frequently, several individuals came to her and said that they weren’t comfortable disclosing that they experienced this in the survey but after the fact reading the survey they felt comfortable emailing or talking to her about their experiences. She would agree with Harper that it happens more than what the data shows.
Baldeh says the most concerning about the report is the 33% that is coming from leaders. That is very alarming. If you have an issue in your work place you’re supposed to go to a manager or your leaders, so if 33% of our leaders are doing this, that is really very alarming. He wants to know what kind of training management has when they come in as manager. What is it that they are mandated to go through so they understand some of this stuff. The other thing is that they do collect data on where this is coming from. Are most of the people who are complaining being harassed by men, or women. He thinks that is important. Who are these leaders. He is also very surprised by the response from the common council and the mayor’s office. Only one person responded.
Donohue says that the data was saying that folks felt harassed by their immediate supervisors, department heads was 3% and 6% by elected officials. For supervisors it was 33% experiences and 36% who witnessed it some percent. They argue among themselves about the numbers. 41% was by peers, 44% witnessed it. It’s peers first, supervisor or manager next, employee from different city department, direct report, elected official is 6%. There is supervisor training, and they touch on some of these things, I think what we really need to do tho is get to the point where we are holding people accountable. Some of the behaviors that folks are describing, these aren’t things that they need to go to training to know that it is wrong. These are behaviors that folks have developed and they are bullying folks because they think they can get away with it. He’s more concerned that folks know they have avenues to go to so that these behaviors can be addressed.
Davis says the behaviors are occurring within work groups, or work places, it the culture, its the climate within the work place, so that is where we have to develop these citywide standards for what acceptable conduct, acceptable behavior, acceptable conversations are. When we investigate harassment or discrimination complaints, they often find that there is just inappropriate behavior that is happening and then its crescendoed into something that violates the anti-harassment, anti-discrimination rule, but there is inappropriate behavior that is happening and so we have to be able to set that standard and communicate that standard that this type of behavior is not only unacceptable, but this is the kind of behavior that we expect every day from those that are supervisors.
Tori says that one step further from setting a standard is to hold folks accountable when that standard isn’t met. One thing they talked about was working hard to create those changes and then hitting a wall when we get to that supervisor/management level in making sure the folks above them hold those individuals accountable to the standard.
Baldeh asks why the Council and Mayor’s office didn’t respond. He says they are part of the problem, that 6% of the people doing this.
Kwasi Obeng, the Council staff says that he has been in meetings with Norm, Harper and Cam McLay discussing all of it and actually he has spoken to Tori as well. The workgroup on APMs is actually working on those and he believes that is some of the work that will come out of that, in terms of what accountability among council officials would look like.
Bidar says Cam is the lead in the Mayor’s Office on this issue so she invite him to speak on what the Mayor’s office is doing in terms of following up on the report.
Mayor’s Office
McLay says that the mayor was extremely grateful for the work of the committees in bringing this information forward. In a universe where we are talking about performance excellence and trying to create a values driven organization where we hold ourselves accountable for the values we say are important, when we have issues like this manifesting themselves in our workplace climate we, those of us in promoted leadership, have an ethical responsibility to create safe and supportive work units. And so these guys have already mentioned and awful lot about the work that is being done, in terms of sequencing of events, particularly in terms of building accountability, they want to bring this topic to the table of the mayor’s management team, because it is all of our collective responsibilities to hear this message, embrace this message and understand our responsibility and talk about what we are going to do next. So in terms of sequencing, today’s meeting they had a micro learning where Melissa Gumbar taught us on empathetic listening and preparing to be able to have these kinds of difficult discussions a) as we receive the feedback and b) as we talk about it within our work unit. Next Monday MAC and WIC are going to present to the Department and Division Heads, where a deeper level of department managers are all going to be confronted with this difficult data. We’re also going to have a presentation on the Women’s Leadership Initiative at that same meeting. The following day at the Mayor’s Management Team Meeting we’re going to use that as an opportunity to engage every manager in the city in the discussion of what did we hear, what does this say about the workplace climate within your work units and what are we as a collective going to do in terms of providing citywide leadership and accountability for these kinds of behaviors and what is each department head going to do in terms of getting their head around what are the issues as they are appearing within their work unit and then holding themselves accountable for addressing any workplace climate issues that exist. This is being treated with a sense of urgency, its also a huge opportunity to provide a context for applying all of the values we talk about in performance excellence to a real world problem that is super, super important. They are going to be doing a lot of concrete work around how to we hold ourselves accountable to this material and what steps are we going to have going forward. He agrees with Harper, we can’t train our way out of this problem, we’ve done the training and if people are confronted with and made aware of these issues but the problem continues, now it is time for how do we hold ourselves accountable for improving our workplace climates. It’s going to involve building systems of accountability and building leader competencies to be able to improve the quality of their workplace unit. A lot of good work being done.
Wrapping Up
Bidar says that this is an important issue, she thanks people for being there, especially Tori and Joishy for taking the time to be here and to be part of the process as employees and to Norm, Harper and Cam. She would like to ask that as they have seen the recommendations and they will be turned into recommendations, she would like to have an update in September or whenever is appropriate, to hear what implementation strategies have been developed and what has been implemented and what is being worked on, so they can stay engaged in the conversation. Does that seem like an appropriate step for council members? Does September sound like and appropriate time?
Harper says that McKinney mentioned some more immediate discussion.
Bidar says we always know you are available to meet with alders individually and we thank you for that, but again, I think collectively, if we can have the next steps that would be great. She says her day job involves a lot of this work as chief diversity officer for a very large organization, I think getting the City involved in those spaces and discussions where chief diversity officers and people who are working on climate are gathering and having discussions about best practices, like employee resource groups are a good example where we are having really very broad city wide discussions, how are they working in other organizations, what are the best practices to implement employee resource group, because they seem simple, you just create a group and they will get together but there are goals and ways to make them really become part of a structure of an organization. Just an example, but to say that it would be great to, and I don’t know who from the city would be the person in those spaces, but she thinks it would be really good to have a conversation. Thank you.
